Pendulum dowsing, reliability expectations and delusions

[Zee]

Hello there. My introduction to pendulum dowsing has been a roller coaster ride. I started using a pendulum (an Acu-Pulsor pendulum) to test nutritional supplements around April this year; to see which would be best to take, what dosage and so forth, which seemed to work very well and be in agreement with what my naturopathic practitioners had suggested using their own muscle testing or pendulum testing. So far so good (or so I assumed).

I did branch out and ask questions about all sorts of things, the universe, spirituality, the future, the past, decisions, personal relationships and so on. I had no real grasp of what I was actually asking, whether I just asking my own subconscious mind and intuition or whether I was somehow accessing some collective unconscious. I believe it is the former now, but at the time, I thought I could establish pretty much anything. I did realise that predictions about the future were unreliable because of all the variables but thought that questions about the past should be reasonable as long as the questions were asked in the right way and whether I could access the relevant memory or not.

I started coming up with all kinds of strange questions about symbols and so on, and asking questions about occultism, and one day wondered why asking the same questions on different days came up with different answers (presumably according to what I'd exposed myself to and learnt or felt); but also on the same day. I asked whether anything was interfering with my results and came up with the answer that a spirit had attached itself to me. I asked more questions and came up with a fanciful picture of the world of this spirit and what rules applied to it and me and so on. I later 'discovered' that my ex-girlfriend had cheated on me, put a curse on me and was also a psychopath. A bipolar friend on facebook suggested that she might be posing as someone else on my profile and bought into my story and soon had me dowsing the identities of people on my profile and I came up with a number of profiles she was allegedly using to spy on me and stalk me. I came up with the result that she had been stalking me for years on line and had 100 different identities.

Later I 'discovered' that all these profiles belonged to different people and they were all part of a big secret society that was watching me and trying to recruit me for my exceptional psychic abilities! These delusions tied into the real world and my interactions with others, which I read far too much into. All these delusions were further reinforced by my dowsing results.

The conspiratorial delusion kept evolving all the time, mainly because of my dowsing and I was sending 'messages' to a host of 'personas' psychically, with the help of my pendulum to note their responses and reactions, and getting 'messages' back from them. I came up with ever more extreme delusions about persecution and ritual abuse and people trying to kill me with magic etc. For about a week I heard voices, but eventually I realised I could change what they said, that they weren't real and I could silence them; and after that they disappeared.

These characters were continually interfering with my dowsing, or so I perceived it, and I had to try to beat them to a question before they 'realised', i.e. I was messing with my own dowsing all the time, but what I didn't realise at the time was that the moments before I thought anyone was interfering, quite often the results were based on a delusion anyway.

Eventually, after I unearthed each global delusion as not real and the characters being generated in my mind, another replaced it, similar to the last but slightly less 'thick'. Eventually I came up with the final big delusion through dowsing and working through each delusion logically and using its own internal logic to try to get on top of it, which was that an external party was projecting a delusion continuously into my mind. I eventually realised this was of course a delusion in itself and I was really just generating it all myself.

So after all that, I've still had unreliable dowsing results and come up with all kinds of strange ideas about what might be causing it besides a shaky foundation. I've tried different pendulums etc. Cleansing pendulums etc.

I believe what has been going on here is a combination of having been very credulous and gullible, overly loyal, not using critical thinking, being obsessive in the amount of dowsing I was doing each day; perhaps having a desired outcome in mind (although I didn't always get it clearly); and that often my dowsing would feed from my paranoia. But it seems that I wasn't deluded before I started using the pendulum to any significant degree, although for health reasons (CFS) I had at times been overly stressed and slightly paranoid - but nothing too severe. Using the pendulum and believing everything it came up with caused me to become deluded and developed the delusions, believing in them totally all the time, and when I shattered one delusion, another one came along or took over. Until I got really bad, and slowly worked my way out of it. My dowsing is still a bit hit and miss but I realise what has been going on, don't believe in it anymore and I managed to clear the last of the delusions and sensory hallucinations (not visual or auditory at that point) by believing my way out of it. I think I created a kind of delusional disorder (for the large part) through reinforcing references or ideas/answers from dowsing. Clearly I am wiser now and don't believe everything I come up with from dowsing, even on my supplements and have ways of busting up any remaining delusions for the large part. I get more 'don't knows' now but that's good as I was just creating answers before out of nowhere which were pretty much all wrong. I don't know what kind of reliability of results you generally expect from asking specific and reasonable questions about something that is in your hand (e.g. a food or a supplement) so I don't know what to compare the above experience to. This whole delusional episode was tough, took up nearly all my time but I came out of it stronger and with more self-knowledge about where I've gone wrong in the past and had been going wrong. I guess in a way it was a catalyst to what was already in place and what had to potential to occur and brought it to a head very quickly.

Has anyone known anyone to have a similar experience? It seems that it doesn't really matter what type of pendulum I use right now, I get similar types of results and that the mind intterfering with the answer or creating an answer from delusion rather than accessing memory is the problem. If I stop dowsing with a pendulum, then I don't have any delusions at all, pretty much. I spend less time dowsing now as doing it too much clearly destroys one's own sense of intuition or confidence in one's own differentiation abilities and decision making abilities. So I know what the pitfalls are, but am wondering whether it is worth giving up dowsing until things settle down and I get the normal expected level of accuracy or whether I should persist and just use my brain a little more and sanity check everything I come up with (as a emotionally healthy individual would do). At some point the level of bad results is not going to be considered a 'sign of delusion' and will be considered to be 'expected and normal'. Where exactly is that line - for a beginner? I guess it's all a matter of expectations and an analytical mindset.

Clearly this is not the type of thing one could discuss with a psychotherapist or psychiatrist; and as such they would probably arrive at totally the wrong conclusions as to why the delusional disorder or episode occurred. So whilst I don't expect psychoanalysis level responses here, I thought that the pendulum connection might trigger some useful ideas or thoughts, and those with more experience could perhaps pass comment.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks!

[Zee]

So ignoring the exact details of the delusional episode I had, if I could distil the fundamental questions, it would be these:

What level of accuracy can I expect from dowsing with a pendulum about food and supplements and such like, whether I have the image in my mind or the actual food item in my hand? Clearly it will vary from person to person but what % accuracy are people getting on this forum for this type of application?

What form do the erroneous results take?

Is it usually a one off wrong answer whereby if you ask the question again you instantly get the right answer and consistenty after that?

Or is it a consistent wrong answer if you retest it until you figure out some way of asking questions around the issue to somehow prove that the previous answer was not reliable and then you are able to dislodge the erroneous idea in your mind by asking the original question again and then get the right answer?

Is it a mixture?

This would at least help me to establish my expectations and gain some kind of feel for whether my testing is drawing on delusional ideas or whether it is just 'normal' mental interference.

I am also interested to hear whether people think that psychology plays the major part in getting good results. To what extent could one expect performance anxiety, low self-esteem and self-sabotage affect one's dowsing results if one suffers from any of these afflictions to any significant degree?

I am not sure anyone can give any definite answer here other than it might do, but has anyone heard of anyone having higher than normal levels of inaccuracy likely attributed to the above suboptimal psychological conditions?

Many thanks.

[ledgehammer]

Zee,

I would suggest that what you experienced is a psychosis, although I am sure there are more specific terms that could be used. I experienced a severe set of these many years back and these pretty much destroyed my life, I have since been able to grasp and understanding using spirituality and the thing that I have learnt is that it doesn't matter where the information is coming from so much as filtering out the order from the chaos, this process can be described as help via God, spirits, guardian angles or anything you can imagine, It may even be you evolving in a way in which you can fix the situation.

The way in which we view the world has a deep impact on what actually happens, Your philosophy will very much influence your decisions and actions, and I would add others actions also. Building a solid philosophy is key, I have adopted many of the Eastern philosophies, as they seem to fit and mentally during spiritual encounters the format has tended to be very similar to that of the East, many of these principles are Buddhist in one form or another.

For example Yin and Yang, resonates deeply in everything I do - and the key is balance. Likewise Nature can be seen as unconciousness / conciousness, Chaos / Order. Nature has an extremely powerful and wide scope which potentially gives us anything no matter how random, wonderfull or seemingly cruel, this is because nature is not based on a good / evil set of rules, nature is vast and is divided into sections which react and interact with one another, some of this behaviour seems cruel to us as we exist within it but there is no good and evil on this level. Nature then creates order within this framework, order is the way in which plants grow, animals breed and the various other patterns which may seem incredibly complex, but I stress, NOT RANDOM, you can proove this by conducting a simple experiment involving probability over a period of time, and as the results become diluted a replicable pattern is assertained.

I therefore see humanity and "potentially" the order within the chaos, and remember chaos is not evil or bad, and gives us the scope for existance without which there would be no humanity. Our concious minds are order, our unconcious minds are very similar to the chaos, especially when you study dreams in depth - I believe a psychosis to be a breakdown in the balance between these two areas, and ideas, knowledge becomes confusing and unordered.

The solution for me has been meditation, self acceptance, and patience as well as a huge amount of discipline, some mental and some physical. I suggest that you take control of this area of your life and thoughts before you dowse, as I am not sure the dowsing will be productive.

I am very much a novice at dowsing, and have been cautious with the information - Having had a self destructive personality in the past there will always be elements of that in my life, some of my dowsing has not been reliable for that reason, I would recommend you ask for spiritual help and support especially in light of you post, and ensure you build a strong philosophy which will benefit you in the long run, and again speaking personally it can be very hard to face your true self without predejice, but humaities salvation lies with this ability to be complete within, the order within chaos.

Best wishes

Tom

[arthur hamlin]

Hello Zee,
I experienced similar to you years ago and than realised that accuracy came when doing healing work.
I also benefited by requesting a skilled spirit person to be present who knew the subject when I asked the questions.
Very often my pendulum used to go still and not move, than start up again about 30 seconds later. On asking was told that my Guide did not know the Answer and had to obtain info from elsewhere.
I used to get so annoyed and the more annoyed I got the answers obtained were becoming less accurate.
Now I do not need a pendulum as I used to challenge them to move my fingers and hand.
If you can advance to this level you will pick up their emotions too by their speed and type of physical response.
Don`t give up it is a wonderful gift/skill to develope.

[Zee]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have analysed the entire episode over the last few weeks, separating assumption from actual hard facts etc. which was a useful exercise. Yes it was clearly a psychotic episode, and more specifically seems to have been Delusional Disorder with some elements of Mania (most probably).

Tom - I agree, I don't care where the information comes from, as long as it is true! That's what I really meant or not. If it is a delusion that mimics reality, then in some senses it doesn't matter as long as we are getting the truth. It's a philosophical question. The main thing is to set one's expectations, know oneself well enough to question what is going on if it doesn't seem right and have the confidence to do so, and to work on one's beliefs so wrong answers are kept to a minimum. Whether the answers come from the unconscious, from the conscious mind, having been put there by my normal level of perception and association or 'sense' in some undefinable manner from the environment in a manner not known to conventional science, or otherwise, doesn't bother me. It interests me though as I like to be scientific if possible. I also agree that a solid and robust philosophy is important. I thought I had one, but clearly I didn't apply it enough or to the extent I thought I had, in all areas. It is easy to compartmentalise certain areas and isolate them from the rest of your logic and belief.

I am not sure that the conscious mind is or strives to be order necessarily - depends on one's values and personality - certainly it strives to maintain control, but not necessarily over everything - and not necessarily what it thinks it has exerted control over. But I'm with you on the need for balance between chaos on the low level and order on the high level - in many key areas.

Thanks for sharing your ideas and also your methods regarding instilling a healthy relationship to the unconscious mind. I believe all these areas are necessary for gaining greater self-knowledge and trusting oneself and one's own instincts more, and getting over performance anxiety and low self-esteem issues.

I am not sure I have the luxury of not using the pendulum, as I need to do it to evaluate my supplements regularly. I still do get the wrong answers, but I can pretty easily flush them out and use an affirmation 'I deserve to get the right answers (all the time)' and repeat this a few times if I'm getting bogus answers from the pendulum and this seems to fix the problem. I avoid asking questions about other areas as the answers are pretty unreliable. It is my belief that my dowsing will continue to improve. I won't rely solely on my own dowsing but will get my naturopath etc. to cross check what I do periodically. At least now I understand psychosis more and the pitfalls with pendulum dowsing and doubt I'll ever fall into the same trap again.

I am pursuing a certain spiritual path at present, and I won't go into details, but I'm fairly confident I'm on the right track.Wishing you well also and please free to post anything that you believe is pertinent or useful in the future in this area - it would be greatly appreciated.

Arthur - Thanks for your post. As stated above, I am almost soley using the dowsing to get answers for supplements etc. for health reasons and little else. I did believe in my delusions that I only got the right answers when I needed to get them, but I think still this may hold some truth. Health and healing is a powerful intention and may carry more weight with the unconscious compared with ego-driven intentions. I am sure if I was engaged in healing others it might help too, but right now I have enough health issues of my own to deal with so I'm focussing on that solely.

I may well ask my naturopath to check out my questioning next time I see her and see if she can sense if anything is wrong, if I'm asking the questions or doing it in the right way and/or get her to then cross check immediately what I've done and try to flush out anything she believes is not congruent or right. Yes spending months dowsing questions and getting the wrong answers all the time is very frustrating to say the least. Do you think it would be worth spending a little time with a professional dowser for training rather than someone who does it as part of their naturopathic repertoire (in a coaching capacity)? Or is it better do you think to do the latter because they are more used to the exact application that I am interested in? Just curious if anyone else has a view on that also please.

I tried various techniques for dowsing without a pendulum during my deluded phase - some of which I concluded were part of the delusions but some maybe not. e.g. audible notifications being said aloud in my head in response to a question (yes or no) - this 'ability' disappeared when the delusions changed and I have no desire to hear voices again lol...in the end I realised I was generating them myself by wanting to hear the expected answer and would make myself hear the yes or no at which point, when I asked the question I heard nothing thereafter and that delusion was shattered.

I also tried a method similar to what you've described, i.e. my finger vibrating or extending on one hand for a yes, and on the other for a no. I did get some movement at first - not sure if I made myself give myself the expected answer and pretend I didn't or what - but fairly soon nothing happened and all I got was a very faint sensation in the hand. I am not sure if I was imagining it or not (or whether it was a sensory hallucination) but either way the results were totally flakey and vastly inferior to dowsing. I'm all for practising skills as long as they are real and not some pseudo-dowsing I've come up with from a delusion that would just reinforce delusion by believing in them and trying to practice them. So I might give this other technique you describe a go in the future when my brain is more congruent to my goals and my core beliefs are more positive and robust.

I can assure you I won't be giving this up, but I did go through a short phase of wondering whether I should stop as it was 'causing' all the problems - clearly it was more complicated than that.

Cheers


Zee

[ledgehammer]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have analysed the entire episode over the last few weeks, separating assumption from actual hard facts etc. which was a useful exercise. Yes it was clearly a psychotic episode, and more specifically seems to have been Delusional Disorder with some elements of Mania (most probably).

Tom - I agree, I don't care where the information comes from, as long as it is true! That's what I really meant or not. If it is a delusion that mimics reality, then in some senses it doesn't matter as long as we are getting the truth. It's a philosophical question. The main thing is to set one's expectations, know oneself well enough to question what is going on if it doesn't seem right and have the confidence to do so, and to work on one's beliefs so wrong answers are kept to a minimum. Whether the answers come from the unconscious, from the conscious mind, having been put there by my normal level of perception and association or 'sense' in some undefinable manner from the environment in a manner not known to conventional science, or otherwise, doesn't bother me. It interests me though as I like to be scientific if possible. I also agree that a solid and robust philosophy is important. I thought I had one, but clearly I didn't apply it enough or to the extent I thought I had, in all areas. It is easy to compartmentalise certain areas and isolate them from the rest of your logic and belief.

I am not sure that the conscious mind is or strives to be order necessarily - depends on one's values and personality - certainly it strives to maintain control, but not necessarily over everything - and not necessarily what it thinks it has exerted control over. But I'm with you on the need for balance between chaos on the low level and order on the high level - in many key areas.

Thanks for sharing your ideas and also your methods regarding instilling a healthy relationship to the unconscious mind. I believe all these areas are necessary for gaining greater self-knowledge and trusting oneself and one's own instincts more, and getting over performance anxiety and low self-esteem issues.

I am not sure I have the luxury of not using the pendulum, as I need to do it to evaluate my supplements regularly. I still do get the wrong answers, but I can pretty easily flush them out and use an affirmation 'I deserve to get the right answers (all the time)' and repeat this a few times if I'm getting bogus answers from the pendulum and this seems to fix the problem. I avoid asking questions about other areas as the answers are pretty unreliable. It is my belief that my dowsing will continue to improve. I won't rely solely on my own dowsing but will get my naturopath etc. to cross check what I do periodically. At least now I understand psychosis more and the pitfalls with pendulum dowsing and doubt I'll ever fall into the same trap again.

I am pursuing a certain spiritual path at present, and I won't go into details, but I'm fairly confident I'm on the right track.Wishing you well also and please free to post anything that you believe is pertinent or useful in the future in this area - it would be greatly appreciated.

Arthur - Thanks for your post. As stated above, I am almost soley using the dowsing to get answers for supplements etc. for health reasons and little else. I did believe in my delusions that I only got the right answers when I needed to get them, but I think still this may hold some truth. Health and healing is a powerful intention and may carry more weight with the unconscious compared with ego-driven intentions. I am sure if I was engaged in healing others it might help too, but right now I have enough health issues of my own to deal with so I'm focussing on that solely.

I may well ask my naturopath to check out my questioning next time I see her and see if she can sense if anything is wrong, if I'm asking the questions or doing it in the right way and/or get her to then cross check immediately what I've done and try to flush out anything she believes is not congruent or right. Yes spending months dowsing questions and getting the wrong answers all the time is very frustrating to say the least. Do you think it would be worth spending a little time with a professional dowser for training rather than someone who does it as part of their naturopathic repertoire (in a coaching capacity)? Or is it better do you think to do the latter because they are more used to the exact application that I am interested in? Just curious if anyone else has a view on that also please.

I tried various techniques for dowsing without a pendulum during my deluded phase - some of which I concluded were part of the delusions but some maybe not. e.g. audible notifications being said aloud in my head in response to a question (yes or no) - this 'ability' disappeared when the delusions changed and I have no desire to hear voices again lol...in the end I realised I was generating them myself by wanting to hear the expected answer and would make myself hear the yes or no at which point, when I asked the question I heard nothing thereafter and that delusion was shattered.

I also tried a method similar to what you've described, i.e. my finger vibrating or extending on one hand for a yes, and on the other for a no. I did get some movement at first - not sure if I made myself give myself the expected answer and pretend I didn't or what - but fairly soon nothing happened and all I got was a very faint sensation in the hand. I am not sure if I was imagining it or not (or whether it was a sensory hallucination) but either way the results were totally flakey and vastly inferior to dowsing. I'm all for practising skills as long as they are real and not some pseudo-dowsing I've come up with from a delusion that would just reinforce delusion by believing in them and trying to practice them. So I might give this other technique you describe a go in the future when my brain is more congruent to my goals and my core beliefs are more positive and robust.

I can assure you I won't be giving this up, but I did go through a short phase of wondering whether I should stop as it was 'causing' all the problems - clearly it was more complicated than that.

Cheers


Zee

Zee,

There are many cultures that regard the delusional as a window into a force beyond, perhaps the word delusional is used out of context perhaps what I mean is what would appear delusional to western laws and social boundaries, but when the receiver is willing to accept and translate then we would seem to be converting this raw seemingly chaotic data into something usefull, which we can apply. Some of my teachings refer to the human "converter" in that we are the eyes of "force x", whether you regard this as nature, god, or something. We have the profound ability to exist within this extremely complex yet harmonious system being aware of not only the system (looking from within), and ourselves within this system, all beit we perhaps have more questions than answers. We are able to channel energy or information depending on our philosophy, into some kind of action/ force which influences other aspects of this system, and my theory that we are influencing the system itself. This is why I mention philosophy as there is no single method - they all have their different mediums, but without a philosophy we stand at a dis-advantage within this process. I learnt a long time ago that sometimes we have to stick with a decision until it has been fulfilled, even if we start to doubt this during the process, we should reflect at the relevant time to learn, and absorb ensuring that the decisions become better, and we become wiser - this is when we begin to "know". Therefore if we choose a philosophy which is not currently relevant this is far better than no philosophy (or a philosophy which is based on following others, and not making decisions which is easy in todays society). Our philosophy will evolve with us, so it will never be "wrong". Quite often philosophy will get us into trouble, may even offend those around us who do not understand but we should endevour to follow what we believe to be truth, this is the only way we evolve and develop which pushes our species forward. As Einstein said "The important thing is to not stop challenging"

Anyway, best wishes with your journey - it sounds like you are on the right path

Tom

[Zee]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your 2 cents. I think everyone has some kind of philosophy, whether they acknowledge it as such or not, but quite often it isn't always so empowering although it may have its plus points. Such an approach can of course get you into serious trouble, so it is best to proactively align yourself with something enables you to increase your self awareness, empowers you and allows you to be more of yourself than you once were. I know what you are saying about delusions - maybe it is down to understanding how to interpret them - like a witchdoctor or shaman type of thing - but I suspect if I had known or realised that at the start, they would not have evolved or developed to such a degree - depending on my level of perversity or inquisitiveness to develop them for the sake of experiment - but they would have messed up my pendulum dowsing so much anyway most likely that I would likely have quit early on! I think there are multiple factors at play and I am determined to get on top of it and understand it in the right context.

Cheers


Zee

[ledgehammer]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your 2 cents. I think everyone has some kind of philosophy, whether they acknowledge it as such or not, but quite often it isn't always so empowering although it may have its plus points. Such an approach can of course get you into serious trouble, so it is best to proactively align yourself with something enables you to increase your self awareness, empowers you and allows you to be more of yourself than you once were. I know what you are saying about delusions - maybe it is down to understanding how to interpret them - like a witchdoctor or shaman type of thing - but I suspect if I had known or realised that at the start, they would not have evolved or developed to such a degree - depending on my level of perversity or inquisitiveness to develop them for the sake of experiment - but they would have messed up my pendulum dowsing so much anyway most likely that I would likely have quit early on! I think there are multiple factors at play and I am determined to get on top of it and understand it in the right context.

Cheers

Zee

Zee,

Totally, the difference is knowing that you have a philosophy - and knowing the potential of this within the truthfull framework of your being, for example I have no concern for posessing money, short of what I need to survive of course. Deep down it took me a while to accept that money would truly not make me happy - "truthfully", so my philosophy has revolved around getting to know the "real me", which money is a distraction (in the most part). I have sucessfull friends who have true goals around making money as part of their larger goals, they have a different philosophy but a very good philosophy which met their true self goals also. Many folks just roll in and out of circumstances , perhaps with a philosophy / perhaps not, they do not ask themselves questions about themselves and live generally happily following the general ideals of our society, which I would not call a philosophy as they have in my eyes "not set one", they are not breaking away from the pack so to speak (very loose aligations, for the purpose of highlighting the point).

In life there are many variables, some which you can control, and some which you cannot. As a species we tend to focus on that which we cannot control and find excuses / blame for those which we have failed to control. A shift in philosophy could be learning to appreciate the variety or consistancy of the weather, and being disciplined with our eating habbits - accepting responsibility for our actions, this is a fundamental basic mentality for a species at our surrent level of evolution, its amazing when you start to look at the diversity of the level of mentality of our culture, one can already see a philosophy forming. Perhaps I think too much??

anyways chap best of luck

Tom