Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by ledgehammer »

Ian Pegler wrote:latest YouTube comment...
KCRyder wrote:I would have picked the same square - just because of the map. Looks like there is a city of some kind indicated at the left top - so naturally the monument will be found near that location...
Wrong, for same reason given before, there is no "naturally" about it, the selection of the monument by the testers was non-random and there are plenty of ancient monuments in rural locations. The abbey is in an urban setting because that's the abbey they chose.

Even if they had chosen it by throwing a dart at the map, there are quite a few other squares which could have done the job just as well.

Feels like I'm repeating myself now. I did notice that a couple of weekends ago, this video started trending, it wend from 2600 views to roughly 4000 over the course of a weekend.

Ian
Ian,

I did link it to the blog, perhaps that gave a few more (nothing like the numbers recorded), I do tend to use it as a link for folk asking about dowsing If I am unable to get to them, or recommend someone :-)

Best

Tom
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by arthur hamlin »

I just feel that it was a pity Clive went in for that test.
Also wonder whether he went without protection etc as I believe with an audience that size it does not take much for thoughts to be interfered with, and that relaxation may not have been what it should have been.
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

arthur hamlin wrote:I just feel that it was a pity Clive went in for that test.
Also wonder whether he went without protection etc as I believe with an audience that size it does not take much for thoughts to be interfered with, and that relaxation may not have been what it should have been.
Or there could have been lumps of metal ore secreted in those podiums?

Of course I have no evidence for this whatsoever, but that's never stopped the skeptics from making similar insinuations towards the late Michael Cook - again, with no evidence.

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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

Just noticed ledgehammer's conversation with "KCRyder" (whoever this person is) on the YouTube page.

I note that he is fond of accusing Tom of logical fallacies, whilst at the same making one or two of his own:
KCRyder wrote:I would have picked the same square - just because of the map. Looks like there is a city of
some kind indicated at the left top - so naturally the monument will be found near that location...
The logical fallacy here is sometimes termed "false cause" because the proponent KCRyder is assuming a correlation between
the clustering of monuments around urban areas on the one hand and the selection process of the test-designers on the other.
Since we know nothing about this selection process, such a correlation cannot be proven. The assumption being made is
that the selection process is entirely random. If this were the case, then perhaps an urban monument would perhaps be more
likely (but still not inevitably) chosen. However, this would make life extremely difficult for the test-designers given how many
ancient monuments there are in the entire world. I suppose one could feed all the data into a computer and program it to
select one at random, but this would take an absolute age! It is extremely unlikely that they did it this way.

The argument quoted above by KCRyder can be effectively rebutted by a simple counter example. If Randi had selected Castle Campbell
(the mediaeval castle in square C6) then KCRyder would have picked the wrong square. Reductio ad absurdum. Monuments in other
squares on Randi's map could be used if the skeptic chooses to redefine the meaning of "ancient monument".

The skeptic-controlled Wikipedia has a list of "logical fallacies" a mile long but the skeptics are guilty of quite a few of these on a
regular basis.

P.S. correcting someone's spelling or grammar does not constitute an ad hominem because poor grammar says nothing about a person's
character. It is on the other hand a bit of a red herring (and I note that skeptics do it all the time).

Ian
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Grahame »

Ian Pegler wrote: The logical fallacy here is sometimes termed "false cause" because the proponent KCRyder is assuming a correlation between
the clustering of monuments around urban areas on the one hand and the selection process of the test-designers on the other.
Since we know nothing about this selection process, such a correlation cannot be proven. The assumption being made is
that the selection process is entirely random. If this were the case, then perhaps an urban monument would perhaps be more
likely (but still not inevitably) chosen. However, this would make life extremely difficult for the test-designers given how many
ancient monuments there are in the entire world. I suppose one could feed all the data into a computer and program it to
select one at random, but this would take an absolute age! It is extremely unlikely that they did it this way.
...
The skeptic-controlled Wikipedia has a list of "logical fallacies" a mile long but the skeptics are guilty of quite a few of these on a
regular basis.
Image

Well said, Ian; and kudos to Tom for tackling the YouTube sceptics.
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by ledgehammer »

Ian Pegler wrote:Just noticed ledgehammer's conversation with "KCRyder" (whoever this person is) on the YouTube page.

I note that he is fond of accusing Tom of logical fallacies, whilst at the same making one or two of his own:
KCRyder wrote:I would have picked the same square - just because of the map. Looks like there is a city of
some kind indicated at the left top - so naturally the monument will be found near that location...
The logical fallacy here is sometimes termed "false cause" because the proponent KCRyder is assuming a correlation between
the clustering of monuments around urban areas on the one hand and the selection process of the test-designers on the other.
Since we know nothing about this selection process, such a correlation cannot be proven. The assumption being made is
that the selection process is entirely random. If this were the case, then perhaps an urban monument would perhaps be more
likely (but still not inevitably) chosen. However, this would make life extremely difficult for the test-designers given how many
ancient monuments there are in the entire world. I suppose one could feed all the data into a computer and program it to
select one at random, but this would take an absolute age! It is extremely unlikely that they did it this way.

The argument quoted above by KCRyder can be effectively rebutted by a simple counter example. If Randi had selected Castle Campbell
(the mediaeval castle in square C6) then KCRyder would have picked the wrong square. Reductio ad absurdum. Monuments in other
squares on Randi's map could be used if the skeptic chooses to redefine the meaning of "ancient monument".

The skeptic-controlled Wikipedia has a list of "logical fallacies" a mile long but the skeptics are guilty of quite a few of these on a
regular basis.

P.S. correcting someone's spelling or grammar does not constitute an ad hominem because poor grammar says nothing about a person's
character. It is on the other hand a bit of a red herring (and I note that skeptics do it all the time).

Ian
Thanks for the info! :-)

I think he moved onto me as his point disappeared with the application of a little logic,

and thanks Graham, I think I got fed up with the armchair attempts to refute. These people that are self acclaimed skeptics are little more than folk with too much time on their hand, the fact he didn't respond to any of my points says it all... I did wish I didn't let it get so far though, I was a little smart arse in places ;-)

Best

Tom
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Mick

Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Mick »

Dowsing only seems to work for me when I am in a relaxed /carefree mood. I suspect that's why dowsers usually fail dismally under test conditions, ( when they really want to be able to show that it works ) Michael Cooks demonstration was the exception to the rule, I'm not 100% sure but I think I know how he did it.
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

Mick wrote:Dowsing only seems to work for me when I am in a relaxed /carefree mood. I suspect that's why dowsers usually fail dismally under test conditions, ( when they really want to be able to show that it works ) Michael Cooks demonstration was the exception to the rule, I'm not 100% sure but I think I know how he did it.
I'll try to enumerate the possibilities:

1) He dowsed it correctly
2) He cheated (NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!!)
3) He got lucky

I can't think of any others. Specifically, intelligent guesswork - consciously or unconciously - is not possible, for the reasons I've given before.

Ian
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Mick »

Ian Pegler wrote: I'll try to enumerate the possibilities:

1) He dowsed it correctly
2) He cheated (NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!!)
3) He got lucky

I can't think of any others. Specifically, intelligent guesswork - consciously or unconciously - is not possible, for the reasons I've given before.

Ian
I have no doubt that he dowsed it 100% correctly. But I suspect it was more than just plain dowsing.
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

I have no doubt that he dowsed it 100% correctly. But I suspect it was more than just plain dowsing.
Please explain. :shock:

Ian
Mick

Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Mick »

Ian Pegler wrote:
I have no doubt that he dowsed it 100% correctly. But I suspect it was more than just plain dowsing.
Please explain. :shock:

Ian
I suspect he was in a much deeper hypnotic state than needed for normal dowsing.
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

This was posted by the late Dan Wilson in 2005...
Dan Wilson wrote:Remember the successful TV trial of dowsing in 1992 which had Randi muttering he didn't know how the dowsers had been able to cheat was presaged by an affirmation by Michael Cook and Bob Harris invoking "protection from Randi and his powers".
Michael was apparently in his younger days a member of a reknowned body of men whose motto is "Who dares wins" [Dowsing Today, July 2010, p.16].

Ian
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Mick »

I would hazard a guess that the "Skeptics" dismiss all forms of hypnotism. :roll:

] :lol:
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Ian Pegler »

I found a brief article about the Psychic Investigator show in the Journal of the BSD, December 1991 (vol 34 No 234) pp.343-345
written by the editor of the day.

This confirms that the producers did not reveal the identity of the host to the BSD and that they only learned it from other sources.

The BSD had already recommended four dowsers to the programme makers and therefore felt obliged to contact them with the new information when it became available.

The article makes clear that at no point were the dowsers instructed not to take part. It concludes:
"One can only say programmes like that are a sheer waste of time. We must continue with perfecting our dowsing ability, let go of the ego and show our serious intent towards the faculty. Programmes of this calibre need dowsers, dowsing does not need such programmes."
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Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Post by Grahame »

The thread that just keeps giving..! :P

I just came across a sceptic's blog that has a handy listing of all the 'psychic investigator' programmes, with videos!

The 'dowsing' one is episode 4.

(mod note 10/18 - 'video blocked on copyright grounds'. Curse you, ITV! :lol: )
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