## Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Grahame Gardner wrote:Alas, this is always going to be a limitation in Stellarium because of the need for a central camera position; unless the stone circle is specifically designed for a central viewpoint, as is the case with my Sighthill stones where there is such a central stone. You can't see it in the Stellarium landscape of course, because that's where the camera was sitting...
According to some sources (Burl?) there was a central stone at Mitchell's Fold too, but if there was and wherever it was, it's gone now.

I've been playing around with the landscape-image, trying to get a better horizon. It makes a big difference, especially regarding the azimuth of sunrise positions. But how to do this when the ground is not even level? I've trying getting the "business-end" to match the horizon of the older version so that sunrises etc. can be compared. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to get the two horizons exactly the same for the full 360 degrees.

I noticed that there was a difference of four metres in the GPS altitude value between the old central point and the new one. I decided to use the old value for both, although it doesn't seem to make a huge difference as far as I can tell.

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

I've been playing around with the landscape-image, trying to get a better horizon. ... But how to do this when the ground is not even level?
I've been pondering this. If your distant horizon-point is at a higher elevation than your centre-point you could, in theory, work out the Altitude (in degrees) using trigonometry:

Altitude = Inverse-tan of (Height / Distance)

You get the Height by working out the difference between the altitudes of the two GPS waypoints. The Distance between the two waypoints you can get from Garmin MapSource or whatever software you're using to store your GPS data on your PC. You then need to adjust the image-file so that when you display it in Stellarium, your distant horizon-point is at this Altitude-angle.

How well it would work in practice I'm unsure!

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

On a previous visit I'd asked the rods to take me to the centre of the circle. It took me to a point slightly north of where someone had lit a fire. This turns out to be exactly where the main axes on Thom's survey cross (!)
Or so I thought...turns out, obviously by now, that this isn't the case. A blunder, sorry.

Here's a piccy of the summit-cairn ley. The stone in the foreground is stone 16 (going by the diag. posted earlier in this thread).

Here is a close-up of the outlier. The Whetstones circle is further along on this line.

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

I've been looking for lunar alignments. The Northern-most moonrise is marked by stone 2 and by Stapeley Hill on the horizon. the Southern-most moonrise seems to be close to one of Thom's "spokes" at bearing 135 degrees from true North, although it may actually rise a little way beyond this. It isn't marked by anything today (bear in mind there are stones missing from this site).

The altitude of the Moon varies considerably; it always reaches it's peak at the North-South Meridian (I find it handy to select the Stellarium setting to display the meridian as a green line) which is over Corndon Hill, 8 degrees past the peak (going clockwise). The moon's altitude at the meridian can vary between about 63 degrees and 11 degrees (although perhaps I haven't observed for long enough?)

Thom's main axis doesn't point to anything specific in the landscape, but the main axis of the modified geometry points just past the peak of Lan Fawr hill (the angle of the 458 A.D. eclipse!) by about 3 degrees.

Ian

Edited by I.P. 14.3.10 - changed Pillow Mounds to Stapeley Hill
mike
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Years ago when I was chasing crop circles around Telford I passed where this site is on the way home and meant to visit, but time got the better of me that day.Regret that reading the posts here, I missed a treat, story of my life.
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

mike wrote:Years ago when I was chasing crop circles around Telford I passed where this site is on the way home and meant to visit, but time got the better of me that day. Regret that reading the posts here, I missed a treat, story of my life.
Hi Mike

I've made several visits and I've only scratched the surface! There's more sites to the North East like Stapely Hill, Giants Grave and the Hoarstones circle, which I haven't even got around to visiting yet. There's a fourth stone circle (now destroyed) called Druid's Castle, apparently not far from Mitchell's Fold but I can't find it on the map. So much going on here...

Ian
mike
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Yes please post everyone, this topic has me on the edge of my chair, I will visit this summer God willing, its a wonderful place Im sure from the many reports and pictures, I know from dowsing the many crop circles near Beyston Hill (A49) the entire area is alive and has powerful ancient history there.
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Here's a dowsing question for anyone who's interested:

(click on the thumbnail for a larger image)

These stones are located between Corndon Hill and Mitchell's Fold, a little way East of the outlier mentioned previously. What does your dowsing say about them? Is this a broken standing stone?

Ian

Edited by I.P. 24.2.10 - corrected cardinal point!
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Ian Pegler wrote:I've been pondering this. If your distant horizon-point is at a higher elevation than your centre-point you could, in theory, work out the Altitude (in degrees) using trigonometry:

Altitude = Inverse-tan of (Height / Distance)

You get the Height by working out the difference between the altitudes of the two GPS waypoints. The Distance between the two waypoints you can get from Garmin MapSource or whatever software you're using to store your GPS data on your PC. You then need to adjust the image-file so that when you display it in Stellarium, your distant horizon-point is at this Altitude-angle.

How well it would work in practice I'm unsure!
I've now tried applying this procedure to produce a "corrected" horizon for the Mitchell's Fold landscapes. Basically what I did was lift the landscape-image up relative to the horizon so that the altitude of the peak of Corndon Hill is now just over 6 degrees, which according to the "theory" is what it should be. The effect on the positions of the various sunrises, moonrises etc. relative to the "natural" horizon is quite dramatic. This 3-degree vertical shift moves the sunrise/moonrise positions clockwise by as much as 10 degrees! Worst of all the moon no longer rises near to Stapeley Hill.

So I'm still unsure, and I can't help but think that there must be a better way.

Ian

Edited by I.P. 14.3.10 - corrected Pillow Mounds reference to Stapeley Hill
mike
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Ian the stones you posted pictures of feel like the lower two are charged, with the higher two being of back ground levels only..I feel the lower two stones could have been moved from a sacred site close perhaps, as some sort of marker/boundry in past times ? I will compare them to Mitchells Fold to see if they once belonged there, from the other pictures you posted.See if we can find a home for them ?

The Michells Fold design dowse at 130 plus, while the two charged stones dowse at 83, so I believe they come from another missing sacred site ? Might pay to dowse the area on Google Earth to try and find other sacred sites, perhaps more than the one exists there,and maybe those other stones belong where the other site is hidden and unseen today ?
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Mike, many thanks for the feedback.

P.S. Did anyone spot my school-boy error??

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Ian Pegler wrote:P.S. Did anyone spot my school-boy error??
No? Well okay here it is:

Within Stellarium there are various display options. If you opt to display the ecliptic and equatorial lines you can discover the equinoxial points, which are the two locations where these two lines cross. When the Sun reaches one of these two crossing points you have an equinox and you can easily find out when this happens. This year, 2010, it happens on March 21st - as you would expect. What you mustn't do is rely on the date. If you set the year back to -1999 (i.e. 2000 B.C.E.) you will discover that the Vernal Equinox happens on April the 7th, not March 21st!

This, I assume, is down to an effect known as the precession of the Equinoxes. (note: not correct - see later post)

Consequently there was no need for me to provide two screenshots of the equinox sunrise - it always happens in the same place (as Sig mentioned in his talk at the last Congress in fact). Moreover, they were both in error since they were based on the modern dates erroneously projected back in time. Moreover again, the statements I made about Lan Fawr in relation to the equinox were also wrong.

I have now retrospectively corrected my previous posts and deleted the two on Lan Fawr. I will provide new screenshots for those, shortly.

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

To illustrate better what I mean, here is a Stellarium screenshot of the Mitchell's Fold vernal equinox in 2000BC on April 7th. The red line is the ecliptic, the darker blue line is the equatorial. (note: these images are based on a translucent landscape with the atmosphere removed.)

Here is exactly the same moment in time as viewed from nearby Lan Fawr Hill:

As you can see it's nowhere near the summit of Corndon Hill. It's near where the footpath reaches the brow.

Ian
Ian Pegler
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

I'm beginning to wonder if my "school-boy error" was an error at all.

The following FAQ is from a NASA web-page:
65. Precession
Is it true that, as a result of the precession of the equinoxes, and because the earth's spinning axis remains roughly constant at 23.5 degrees, in about 13,000 years the northern hemisphere will experience the summer solstice in December?

One should not expect summer solstice to be in December in 13,000 years, because of the way the length of the year is defined, as the time between one solstice and the next, or one spring equinox and the next. In 13,000 the stars behind the Sun's position at the spring equinox will be quite different, but assuming the same calendar will still be current, the date will still be reckoned as 21 March, or near it.
If that is right then I can see no reason why the vernal equinox in 2000BC shouldn't be on, or near to, March 21st. (note: incorrect. See later post) I think what were seeing is the limits of the accuracy of Stellarium. This being the case, either the screenshots are right and the dates are wrong or the dates are right and the screenshots are wrong!! I prefer the former to the latter.

Any thoughts?

Ian
mike
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### Re: Mitchell's Fold (stone circle in Shropshire, England)

Sorry Ian my head is hurting now, I dont believe a word NASA SAYS ANYWAY, they covered up the Megalith On Mars with Google Mars links, so how can you trust them people ? Like the Moon photos, some are genuine and some are not,okay blame me for going off topic, but its only cause my head hurts.