The creation of energy

[simonwheeler]

[arthur hamlin]

Its sad how we turn to conflict instead of answering the questions that we have the answers to,

In Simons Defence he was supporting me, and in yours Arthur you are defending your corner, both admirable standings:-)

Arthur:

I promise I am not trying to demeen or attack you , merely attempting to learn from you , and understand : this is essential for me, and dowse please if you wish if you disbelieve.

All:

please can you respond to the three posts I posted, I genuinely think we were getting somewhere, unsure as to why we have de-railed...

Best

Tom
The universe is a soul, trying to understand itself.... We each have the power to look inward at its immense beauty....


Hi Tom,
I am trying to think of an answer but my mind will not respond very well.
I have been de-meanered before by certain posters who use all kinds of wording and often refer to written works by others to reinforce their arguments. I live by a code which states - Live and let Live. Do as you would be done by.
I note there is mention that `no one is better than another`. I feel it would be better if that was worded - we are all different and if fortunate can come to the same conclusion on a specific dowsing exercise/question/answer, as very often our information source like us will have a variation in the reply.
If you would like me to answer any question you raise by dowsing, could you please say what you would like me to help you on as I need refreshing .

[ledgehammer]

(Simon) May I suggest that Geoff, as the starter of this thread, considers whether or not to try to get us back on track?

I will have a go at this, Simon. It would seen that, from my appreciation of the situation, we have reached a conclusion that mental energy should be termed “Mental Power” which could be a different form of energy from that which is channelled via the Universe.

I would suggest that a definition of Mental Power is that which is generated (created) by the mind of a person using Intent for specific purposes that cannot be achieved by the use of channelled Universal energy.

So, to answer the original question, I dowse that the energy that scientists refer to cannot be created or destroyed but there are other kinds of energies, in the form of mental power, that can be used to create and/or eliminate certain conditions that I have listed previously in this thread. The following comments from Tom would seem to bear this out.


(Tom) “I get on further dowsing, quantification (I love that word!) that the energy which Geoff is speaking of is different in some way, and as i see this as a progression from something deeper, a transformation if you like. I believe Geoff, is able to summon this energy and seemingly change it in a way in which potential becomes actual, and this is a gift to never be underestimated (it is also something I am unable to do, on that level).”

The only comment I would make is that I do not regard it as a “gift”. I have dowsed that, like many other people I know, our abilities in this particular field are the results of training we have received, mostly by shamans, in previous incarnations. I am presently training 11 local people to use this metaphysical technique and have been in contact with several others, world wide, who also use it. Whether you believe that the technique exists or not, or whether it is a form of energy or not, is up to you.

My source cannot answer the further questions that Tom asks because not even they know the answers !

Geoff,

Yes, yes , yes ! :-)

The issue here is clearly a lack of agreed upon definitions, Im inclined to use the word intent as well as Simon, but you must dowse that the intent is behind the energy, and not the energy or do you dowse them as the same.

Intent and perception are powerful things, I very much see ourselves as the eyes of the universe, I think i mentioned before as a feedback system.

Essentially if you want to create something, then you can using intent : from our perspective we see the beginning of this "creation here" I have pondered the inner workings of this for some time and that perhaps is a personal thing which interests me, but this is by no means anything to do with creating the intent / mental energy e.t.c

I dont think anybody has questioned the energy itself Geoff, we are merely questioning from which it came, and in an esoteric energy based heaven, it is an assumption to label finite attributes - this is why the debate highlighted that perhaps this energy formed from something else, hence part of an infinite process (perhaps not infinite, but infinite to the eyes of those who are involved at the level we are).

My beliefs are centred around the idea of a infinite potential being somewhere behind, or under what we can see as well as joined to ourselves, it is because of this I am unable to see energy as you say being created, without it having undergone the attributes in which my beliefs complement.

I respectfully understand what you are saying though, and by no means can the two not coincide.

As for it not being a gift, I strongly disagree, everything that sets us apart is a gift a gift of our individuality, and as i see this existance / reality as the interaction of variety, if we display enough strength to allow variety then we should be grateful for being given the opportunity. Truth is difficult and to follow truth means that you must be prepared to sacrifice everything in order to understand what is there, those who are doing that however aware deserve credit, especially those who put themselves out for this cause with personal risk, a worthy cause, a noble one, and if that is not a gift then i dont know what is

:-)

Tom

[ledgehammer]

Thank you, Geoff!

Geoff: It would seen that, from my appreciation of the situation, we have reached a conclusion that mental energy should be termed “Mental Power” which could be a different form of energy from that which is channelled via the Universe.

I concur- for the purposes of this thread, anyway.

Geoff:I would suggest that a definition of Mental Power is that which is generated (created) by the mind of a person using Intent for specific purposes that cannot be achieved by the use of channelled Universal energy.

I'm not so sure, here. I am starting to wonder if by Mental Power we actually mean "intent".

Geoff: So, to answer the original question, I dowse that the energy that scientists refer to cannot be created or destroyed but there are other kinds of energies, in the form of mental power, that can be used to create and/or eliminate certain conditions that I have listed previously in this thread.

Now we seem to be getting to the nub of the issue.
I'm unclear about what is meant by "the energy that scientists refer to". A nuclear physicist might mean energy from fission whereas a chemist might mean energy created by mixing two chemicals together. The commonality here would be that in both cases the energy can be measured- maybe perceived in some way(s) (explosion, bubbles); also that the scientists would want empirical evidence- so the experiments would be repeated and produce the same observable results. This form of energy is transforming...producing observable and repeatable changes in physical matter.

The "other forms of energies" are more esoteric (hidden). I suspect that these are the energies of which we write here. And using Mental Power (that is, intent) we can work with these energies. As Hillary says- using intent to channel energy to destroy disease. Or maybe using intent (Mental Power) to move earth energy (whatever that is!) that may be proving harmful. Or, shamanistically, to temporarily inhabit the body of another creature. Or to have a premonition. Or work as a medium. These energies, too, are transforming.

And just as physical matter can exist in various states (solid, liquid, gaseous), so can esoteric energies- but they may not be states with which we are familiar. However, we can "piggyback" on them.

And, maybe, where the physical and esoteric energies meet (sorry to use these expressions, but it's all I have for now) is where the dowser works.

Am I getting near, Geoff?! Tom?

Simon,

I see it as such: it is all energy one and the same (observed from a mental point outside) depending on your level of understanding of where the energy is coming from, and how physical about it you want to be, depends on what you will see and what you can do with it. However for the purposes of applying this energy in different ways we would need to be able to mentally interact with it as such, which I think is where the different energies come in - if we perceived all energy to be nuclear then the mental energy part would not work, therefore there is something tangible there, there has to be something different in order to a) identify it and b)use it

For instance we see light, now I believe that light comes from something else, which comes from something else and so forth and the process will continue wether we are able to comprehend its beginning, I guess u could compare that to electricity and light and e.t.c. but what If we or some other force has created the concept of electricity somehow, through a shared agreement that it is possible.

how similar that energy is to intent, well I believe that intent is experienced in the moment by those involved in the moment, the other energy that we all accept is there e.t.c relies on eduction and being taught as such, and in some cases experienced. So the scientific energy we are talking about is almost like a preset mode, the intent bit is the part in which we are able to use our feedback capability and make something happen , it is also restricted by the methods of maintaining the repeatable part, i.e because we are told that this exists as a matter of fact, and this doesnt exist the power of intent becomes less individual, less powerful and more convenient.

Now heres the bit that hurts a little, if enough people are involved can intent become science? Is this what determines the evolution of a species such as ours, when science and intent come together and human potential is understood.

I get that when an individual understand this potential the need for the physical disintegrates, and everything finite for that consciousness is no longer necessary, this is through dowsing (barely), meditation, and just understanding - just knowing.

what do you guys get for an individual?
what do you guys get for a species?
and what do you get for me, permission granted?

At first I thought that that meant, this world was inferior, I was beyond it i just had to see through it, but it doesnt work that way we, have to understand it in order to see it and the physical is a translated version of the unphysical. Therefore I started to look at processes and people and common things which influence and affect more than one individual etc, but we have to master this life, in all its heartache, pain, horror and beauty, innocence, passion and love before we can truly see the infinite. The only way to do this is to be involved in as many ways as you can, with an earnest modest method of viewing things. This has bought me back onto a philosophy I started to lose, and Im convinced this is the way forward.

I would go further to say that this is perhaps the foundations of becoming a universe itself (I still do not know what this means and universe is not the correct term, its the nearest translation to what I saw)

the above is why I struggled to accept the concept of an individual creating energy / but i think as we have continued even through our very beliefs being challenged we have all done exactly what I talk about above, this is truth and i commend each of you for your involvement, if this were any other forum (i know) the topic would have been closed and a lot of bad feeling and mis-understanding would have been the main outcomes.

Simon,

I think you word it very well, and that as said is half the battle :-)

Tom

[ledgehammer]

Its sad how we turn to conflict instead of answering the questions that we have the answers to,

In Simons Defence he was supporting me, and in yours Arthur you are defending your corner, both admirable standings:-)

Arthur:

I promise I am not trying to demeen or attack you , merely attempting to learn from you , and understand : this is essential for me, and dowse please if you wish if you disbelieve.

All:

please can you respond to the three posts I posted, I genuinely think we were getting somewhere, unsure as to why we have de-railed...

Best

Tom
The universe is a soul, trying to understand itself.... We each have the power to look inward at its immense beauty....


Hi Tom,
I am trying to think of an answer but my mind will not respond very well.
I have been de-meanered before by certain posters who use all kinds of wording and often refer to written works by others to reinforce their arguments. I live by a code which states - Live and let Live. Do as you would be done by.
I note there is mention that `no one is better than another`. I feel it would be better if that was worded - we are all different and if fortunate can come to the same conclusion on a specific dowsing exercise/question/answer, as very often our information source like us will have a variation in the reply.
If you would like me to answer any question you raise by dowsing, could you please say what you would like me to help you on as I need refreshing .

Arthur,

I get that is perhaps my shortcoming and not yours,

try to ignore the demeaning and the past, you have my full attention - and i promise not to do the same.

I have read things , but all of my conclusions and answers however relevant have been wrong and will be wrong in the future, that is surely learning. The stuff i seem to find myself asking myself and the world, is so beyond anything - i feel that sometimes you can get close to a point of no return, and as much as I am confident in my journey - i have a huge amount to learn, which is why I turn to the others who seem to be following a personal journey such as mine, I am sure this time next year my understanding will be different.

Living by any discipline is good, in fact sometimes it doesn't matter the discipline if there is none.

I had a dream once that humanity was an idea, created by an advanced race to unify multiple races within the universe, a reality in which the alien races could interact, with tonnes of variety - I loved it because it couldn't explain any better how different we all are, yet similar in a physical context, and a scientific one.

I believe we each each connected with something, this something can appear to us in concepts we can understand such as the concept of God, power, bright light e.t.c this connection is different from person to person, and on top of that we have a physical programming which occurred from day 1 which also makes us very different to anybody else, this implies a huge potential difference between our race, in many ways I feel we need science as a foundation of which to start.

I also believe that our own personal reality as far as noone else is concerned is our own and I also believe that the rules can differ, even science, in this way i believe that we have devise in the creation of our reality whether we understand it or not, so who is to say what is right or wrong, or relevant for anyone, the answers that you dowse are specific to you when talking in a spiritual context, possibly because of the interface you have with asking the questions (this is what this thread has shown anyway), or possibly because the source of your reality is interacting with you, giving you the answers you seek or deserve, based on your level of understanding/ what you want deep down perhaps?

there are some questions on the pervious post that you could answer, i think dowsing definitions has become extinct :-)

Best

Tom

[arthur hamlin]

Quoting Tom-

I get that when an individual understand this potential the need for the physical disintegrates, and everything finite for that consciousness is no longer necessary, this is through dowsing (barely), meditation, and just understanding - just knowing.

what do you guys get for an individual?
what do you guys get for a species?
and what do you get for me, permission granted?

Tom, sometimes I have to read a second time the paragraphs you write as I have difficulty in absorbing for a reasoned reply.
You have a very busy enquiring mind. I was like this 40 years ago and asked/enquired until 2 or 3 in the morning with my mate in the car than found myself reborn as the light of knowing had got to me. But not as knowledge a Scientist would have but more to do with well being and finding answers to problems by equating with nature and their reaction to given situations.

Now am not sure how best to answer your above 3 questions, all I can say is that when ones mind takes over sufficiently the physical takes a back seat as if you are asleep with dreams. I don`t see a reason why the physical has to disintegrate as this is your means to obtain experience to climb up that spiritual ladder.
Every species I feel is on a path to Nirvanna and man is on the end of that climb with his intelligence and understanding but lacking in many respects the ingredient of love that enables us to join up with the unseen world to give/receive healing for instance.
Tom, I feel you are no exception to the above except for your enquiring mind and feel that you could get that breakthrough if you keep enquiring as I did, or say a darts player trying to get repeated doubles on a dart board.

[ledgehammer]

Quoting Tom-

I get that when an individual understand this potential the need for the physical disintegrates, and everything finite for that consciousness is no longer necessary, this is through dowsing (barely), meditation, and just understanding - just knowing.

what do you guys get for an individual?
what do you guys get for a species?
and what do you get for me, permission granted?

Tom, sometimes I have to read a second time the paragraphs you write as I have difficulty in absorbing for a reasoned reply.
You have a very busy enquiring mind. I was like this 40 years ago and asked/enquired until 2 or 3 in the morning with my mate in the car than found myself reborn as the light of knowing had got to me. But not as knowledge a Scientist would have but more to do with well being and finding answers to problems by equating with nature and their reaction to given situations.

Now am not sure how best to answer your above 3 questions, all I can say is that when ones mind takes over sufficiently the physical takes a back seat as if you are asleep with dreams. I don`t see a reason why the physical has to disintegrate as this is your means to obtain experience to climb up that spiritual ladder.
Every species I feel is on a path to Nirvanna and man is on the end of that climb with his intelligence and understanding but lacking in many respects the ingredient of love that enables us to join up with the unseen world to give/receive healing for instance.
Tom, I feel you are no exception to the above except for your enquiring mind and feel that you could get that breakthrough if you keep enquiring as I did, or say a darts player trying to get repeated doubles on a dart board.

Arthur,

I think I get you, The need to find answers sometimes is counterproductive to receiving the answers, I have found that slowing down the pace of physical life can aid to a better mental (I suspect) spiritual understanding. If we slow it down the physical becomes useful, but as potentially eternal beings spiritually - surely the physical is temporary?

I am not sure of the answers myself completely, whether when we have reached a point in which we are meant to reach, what happens. I am almost sure that there is another exit which is different to the normal death and reincarnation (or whatever you believe), this is a difficult subject to approach as to a scientific mind it would seem that I need some sort of treatment :-) This has occurred over a period of time and having constant reassurance from what I am sure to be an external force, I feel more sane and more balance mentally than ever, and any tests e.t.c performed on myself would show this to be the case (any true and fair test anyway - should one exist).

I am also told that there is places which may help to understand this process, although i am not told where these places are, and that that is part of the journey itself.

I think what I am describing is beyond humanity, and beyond the physical. I was hoping you guys had maybe heard of such a thing. I go a little further in that it almost feels like there is a choice, when you have understood that there is an exit, that there is a choice - you can leave early and this will influence the next stage (I say leave early, some may well be at the correct point to leave), or you can reevaluate and conclude your life experiences and your perception as a result. For instance i have seen a predominant corrupt reality where humans have little or no regard for values, even values that the acclaim to have. This is a result of working the career i have, and to a degree allowing my emotions to take over my philosophy. On this reflection it dawned on me that I haven't really experienced or allowed myself to experience life fully, with the wrong mentality and that if I were to take that exit it would be a short cut not worth taking. I feel i have this opportunity to experience the world to understand , doing this on my own while evaluating humanity and paying attention to the things I missed before because I wasn't looking correctly.

Perhaps this whole thing has been in order for me to use the life i have been given, and to use the faith which has always been there but forgotten by the conditioning of modern society. This conditioning is quite rife and widespread from the lottery to to looking in the mirror, it seems we are creatures of storing information, if you allow yourself to fill up on the wrong information then this will influence you as a person.I know that in order to change this I must make a change to my surroundings, to the information available, and in my short time planning my travelling and speaking with those who have also realise that this information was never too far away, I just wasn't looking for it as it wasn't profitable, or didn't keep me occupied in a career...

I suspect this area is difficult for other folks to tread and perhaps its a little too personal to share, so i thankyou Arthur for your answer :-)

Best

Tom

(I think I shifted topic again, sorry Geoff / Simon - get it back on track and I will keep it there this time :-))

[simonwheeler]

Tom: (I think I shifted topic again, sorry Geoff / Simon - get it back on track and I will keep it there this time :-))

Perhaps. Perhaps not. After all, maybe we are looking for the "theory of everything"- in which case anything goes in this thread!!?

This will be a relatively brief post....(hooray!!)
Just to try to be helpful (as ever...)

1. Picking up on something Arthur wrote: meditation is a wonderful tool to help uncover/discover the Truths within.
2. I wonder if you have read much about cabbalah? If not, you might find that it resonates with some of the principles/ideas you are working through. Unfortunately there is much written on kabbalah that is unhelpful; however, with focus and intent I am sure you could find resources that would be interesting & useful.
3. It is said by some that we are not so much physical beings trying to learn to be more spiritual, but spiritual beings trying to learn with/from the physical.
4. I also point you in the direction of the shaman (among others) notion of Totem animals and Power animals. This can be linked with meditation- which can be similar to a shamanic journey.

Meditation and journeying are part of the "using esoteric energies" theme we have going here. Kabbalah provides an interesting possible insight to the creation and distribution of such energies.

(by the way, the interruption of the death/reincarnation cycle sounds to me like a a Buddhist belief...whereby we get off the endless wheel (in Tarot- the Wheel of Fortune). But my knowledge and understanding of Budddhism is limited so I happily defer to anyone out there who knows more...
This site: has a good very basic outline of Buddhism)

[ledgehammer]

Tom: (I think I shifted topic again, sorry Geoff / Simon - get it back on track and I will keep it there this time :-))

Perhaps. Perhaps not. After all, maybe we are looking for the "theory of everything"- in which case anything goes in this thread!!?

This will be a relatively brief post....(hooray!!)
Just to try to be helpful (as ever...)

1. Picking up on something Arthur wrote: meditation is a wonderful tool to help uncover/discover the Truths within.
2. I wonder if you have read much about cabbalah? If not, you might find that it resonates with some of the principles/ideas you are working through. Unfortunately there is much written on kabbalah that is unhelpful; however, with focus and intent I am sure you could find resources that would be interesting & useful.
3. It is said by some that we are not so much physical beings trying to learn to be more spiritual, but spiritual beings trying to learn with/from the physical.
4. I also point you in the direction of the shaman (among others) notion of Totem animals and Power animals. This can be linked with meditation- which can be similar to a shamanic journey.

Meditation and journeying are part of the "using esoteric energies" theme we have going here. Kabbalah provides an interesting possible insight to the creation and distribution of such energies.

(by the way, the interruption of the death/reincarnation cycle sounds to me like a a Buddhist belief...whereby we get off the endless wheel (in Tarot- the Wheel of Fortune). But my knowledge and understanding of Budddhism is limited so I happily defer to anyone out there who knows more...
This site: has a good very basic outline of Buddhism)

Simon,

I havent I shall check out caballah, I get that with "focus and awareness" this is a life long principle of applying meditation to everyday life. I get that meditation isn't sitting in silence e.t.c, but more how we manouver through life, but I also get that meditation is the closest translation we have. We are on a journey, the physical is forwards (ideally) the spiritual is upwards, therefore a successful journey will be like a staircase (at present i envison it without steps)

I like your thrase about physical / spiritual, I believe the physical is a playing field almost like an interface (non computerlike) for our connection with the spiritual plane or source of energy depending on your belief. This is where I feel that there could be other interfaces or realities or perhaps dimensions as some may call it, interestingly this story may be best explained by alternative dimension or reality (i find this is as rational as any tbh) :

http://forum.britishdowsers.org/viewtop ... pit#p12248

p.s the book mentioned is great i will do a review when i get chance!!!

This comes from the idea that our physical realty is a tool, and when we have finished using this tool, we use another - i.e change interfaces. This could be from death and re-incarnation, or as i seem to be getting other means, more lucid means.

The power animals I have not heard of , but i am aware of the support of two such animals (probably guides) which help me base my philosophy. Using animal movements is common in martial arts and tai chi, to which i think there is a synchronisation for the spiritual and physical parts to us that is occurring, after a good tai chi session you do feel more complete, balanced.

Simon, my source is of a buddhist nature although i have been told that buddhism is derived from the source of this information, there are parts which come to me and make no sense , there is a definite translation aspect in what I am receiving which sometimes make it difficult to word, however it makes complete sense in my head, this physical is trying to explain it probably to share, the physical part seems excited about it , and obsessed with telling people to the point I have to hold back.

I have books and pages of lessons and philosophies that I have written with little knowledge of how I am receiving this information, but this is irrelevant at this point - its the information that is important.

A very usefull post though Simon, so Thankyou :-)

Best

Tom

[Lyndon Ronstadt]

The planes of Substance according to Alice Bailey.

Code: Select all

The Planes                            Energy creation? (Dowsed)

DIVINE (Adi):                                  Y

MONADIC (Anupadaka):                           Y

SPIRITUAL (Atmic):                             Y

INTUITIONAL (Buddhic):                         Y

MENTAL (Manasic):                              N

EMOTIONAL (Astral):                            N

PHYSICAL (Physical):                           N

Ego dowse ergo sum.